supporting women in all levels of leadership

Women in all levels of leadership and ministry… Well, I guess this is the serious entry in response to satire entitled - 10 reasons why men should not be ordained for ministry.  And to give you a little context, this is what I wrote in an earlier post about supporting women in ministry:

…we have to ask how are we as revolutionary followers of Jesus - who debunked the systemic structures during his life - are working, living, ministering, writing, speaking and creating to work towards that end.

Power [authority], voice and influence are not easily pursued [and obtained]. It must be distributed and shared from those who have that very power, voice and influence. And because it is so counter-cultural, we have to be that much more intentional.

As a male, I am embarrassed at times at the manner in which we [men] directly, indirectly, or systemically oppress our sisters. While there’s a legitimate female candidate for the president of this country, there are many [in the church] who still wonder if women should be in leadership. I know that [for them] it’s a biblical issue and not intended to be a personal issue but why would women want to subject themselves to these questions again and again and again…

Sadly, this is an issue and conversation that will continue until the Day of the Lord.  Many have already drawn their lines in the sand and others are on the fence.  Regardless, this entry is shared for the purpose of calling each of us to a deeper engagement of the Scriptures since we are called to be women and men not simply propelled by human observations or popular culture but also compelled by biblical revelation and the life of Jesus Christ.

Why do churches, pastors, and Christians believe that women should not be allowed in all levels of leadership and ministry?  The unanimous answer is: 

Because the Bible says so.

Yes, there are places in the New Testament that lend support to that belief.  But the more substantive question we should we asking is, “What do the Scriptures mean?” and “How do we read the Scriptures?”.  I believe in the authority of the Scriptures.  I believe in the Word of God.  But I also believe that the Bible was written in context and culture and subsequently, we must - with deep prayer and discernment- study, interpret, and be guided by the Scriptures.  Let’s be honest:  If the Bible were easy to interpret, we wouldn’t need to study, teach, preach, write, exegete, etc.  

Many will say that reading the Bible in such a way is dangerous because it leads us to a “slippery slope.”  Umm, interpreting the Bible as the Word of God is serious business.  Anytime we attempt to speak on behalf of God is serious.  Period. 

It is for that reason that my support for women in leadership is compelled by the Scriptures - the narrative of God’s creation of mutuality in Genesis, the life of Jesus Christ, the distribution of the spiritual gifts in the Pentecost, and the context of Paul’s instructions to the early Church.

For your reading, examination, and feedback, I’ve copied a lengthy portion from Called & Gifted [pdf] - a publication by Evangelical Covenant Church.  Quest is part of the ECC and I am also ordained through this denomination.  I was writing a long post and just lost steam.  The authors of this publication do a better job articulating a “biblical basis for the full participation of women in the ministries of the church.”

I’ll write Part 2 later this week.   For now, what do you think?  Why do you believe what you believe?  How does the Scriptures inform what you believe?

My sincere hope is that we can respectfully engage in this conversation - regardless where we stand on this “issue.” 

**********************************************************************************

What is the biblical basis for this position?

We believe in the Holy Scriptures, the Old and the New Testaments,

as the word of God and the only perfect rule for faith, doctrine, and conduct.

Our tradition, therefore, has always been to ask, “Where is it written?”

on matters of faith, doctrine, and conduct. Our position on women

in ministry flows from our high view of Scripture and is not derived from

cultural or societal trends. We believe that “women ought to minister not

because society says so but because the Bible leads the Church to such a

conclusion.”

 

There are several interpretive frameworks through which people arrive

at their conclusions about the subject of women in ministry. This document

unpacks the interpretive framework through which the Covenant

arrives at its position. We invite those who are in agreement, those who

are still searching, and those who disagree to look through the same window

with us to see what we see. This document outlines, from creation

through redemption, the biblical basis for our position and reflects our

conviction that the Bible, in its totality, is the liberating word.

 

Creation. From the beginning, the Bible reveals God’s plan for human

beings as one of community, unity, equality, and shared responsibility.

Both men and women were created in God’s image, and God initiated a

relationship with both, without preference for one or the other. In addition,

God charged both women and men equally with the blessings and

responsibilities of childrearing and dominion over the created order

(Genesis 1:26-28; 5:1-2).

 

The fact that both men and women were created in God’s image is

particularly significant. God’s plan for community and unity was based

on the equality of the human beings God had created and on their equal

participation and full partnership. The Hebrew words ‘ezer knegdo are

used as a descriptor for woman in Genesis 2:18. ‘ezer is frequently translated

as “helper,” which some have come to interpret or understand as an

inferior or one in a supporting role. Unlike the English word “helper,”

the Hebrew ‘ezer implies no inferiority; in fact, this word most frequently

refers to God in the Old Testament, meaning protector or rescuer.2

Its modifier, knegdo, means “suitable,” “face to face,” “equivalent to,” or

“visible,” and indicates that God created an equivalent human being to be

a good companion for man. This rules out authority and subordination

for either man or woman.

 

Some would argue that the fact that woman was formed from man

creates both preeminence and authority for the man. There is nothing in

the text that supports this interpretation. Rather, the text emphasizes that

man was incomplete, and God kindly created for him a suitable companion

(Genesis 2:21-23). God’s loving act to alleviate man’s loneliness did

not produce an inferior being; rather God created an equivalent human,

underscoring the unity and equality of all human beings.

Finally, some point out that the Bible frequently refers to God as male.

Four points should be made concerning this matter.

 

• First, the Bible affirms that God is spirit (John 4:24) and has no

body or biological sex, as we do.

• Second, while the Bible often refers to God as male, this is the language

of comparison, employing simile and metaphor. We should

remember that Scripture refers to God as a rock and a fortress

(Psalm 31:2-3); Jesus refers to himself as a mother hen (Luke 13:34);

and God refers to himself as rot and a festering sore (Hosea 5:12).

These are examples of God condescending to explain himself by

comparison to forms we can understand. Yet these descriptions do

not alter the basic teaching that God is spirit.

• Third, the limits of human language limit our understanding. Most

languages do not have a neutral-gender pronoun (e.g., “it”) that

can successfully refer to a higher-order animate being (e.g., a human)

let alone a deity, even if that deity is perceived to be without biological

sex or gender. The lack of appropriate terminology limits

our ability to apprehend phenomena that is normally outside the

range of human experience. Lacking appropriate pronouns for God,

we substitute male pronouns, with the result that they sometimes

shape our perception of God in unintended ways, even while serving

to make God more personal.

• Finally, in Jesus, God assumed particularity. That is, Jesus was a

male Palestinian Jew. Yet neither his Jewishness nor his maleness

is meant to be a standard used to exclude Gentiles or women from

full participation in the Christian community. The New Testament

affirms that in this particularity Jesus becomes the one for all, the

one who draws all to him (John 12:32).3 It was on this issue that

Paul opposed Peter (Cephas) at Antioch when Peter withdrew from

fellowship with Gentile believers (Galatians 2:11-14). Paul believed

that the truth of the gospel is that old distinctions and divisions

ought to have no power or efficacy in Christ. The old, said Paul,

has passed away. The new has come (2 Corinthians 5:17).

 

Effects of Sin. Sin entered the world through both the man and the

woman. They were co-participants in the fall, and are equally culpable

(Genesis 3:6; Romans 5:12-21; 1 Corinthians 15:21-22).

 

One of the key results of sin was—and continues to be—the break in

unity and fellowship between humans and God, as well as between Adam

and Eve. As a result of sin, Adam began to rule over Eve (Genesis 3:16).

This hierarchy is an unwanted result of sin and is not God’s prescription.

It violates God’s original plan for unity, equality, fellowship, and community.

When in discussion with the authorities concerning the law of Moses,

Jesus laid down the principle that the standard is the original intention of

God found in Genesis 1 and 2 (Matthew 19:3-9).

 

Another unwelcome result of sin was the corruption of the ensuing

culture, which led to hostilities among people and culminated in the

oppression and exclusion of those considered to be weaker classes: the

poor, the sick, women, the unclean. The Old Testament records these customs,

as well as the longing for the day when all creation would be redeemed.

The redemption would include the elimination of barriers and reconciliation

between former enemies. Isaiah prophesies, “The wolf shall live

with the lamb, the leopard shall lie down with the kid, the calf and the

lion and the fatling together, and a little child shall lead them” (Isaiah 11:6).

The Old Testament prophets foretold the Messiah as the one who would

bring about a feast for all people; would heal the blind, the deaf, and the

lame; would proclaim release to the captives and freedom for the oppressed

(Isaiah 61). It is significant that Luke 4:16-21 records Jesus quoting this

very passage before announcing that in him it is fulfilled.

 

Additionally, the prophets pointed to a time when “You shall be called

priests of the LORD, you shall be named ministers of our God” (Isaiah

61:6), and to a time when God’s Spirit would be poured out on all believers

(Joel 2:28-29), both young and old, men and women. This was later

confirmed when Peter wrote, “like living stones, let yourselves be built

into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices

acceptable to God through Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 2:5), and “you are a chosen

race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s own people, in order

that you may proclaim the mighty acts of him who called you out of darkness

into his marvelous light” (1 Peter 2:9). This is confirmed again in

Revelation, where it is repeatedly declared that all those who believe in

Christ will be priests: “To him who…made us to be a kingdom, priests

serving his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and

ever” (Revelation 1:5-6); “ you have made them to be a kingdom and

priests serving our God…” (Revelation 5:10); and “…they will be priests

of God and of Christ…” (Revelation 20:6).

 

The hierarchical, divisive, and patriarchal customs that developed

are not God’s ideal order. God’s ideal order, plainly stated through the

prophecies about the Messiah, is one of healing and reconciliation. God’s

ideal order eliminates the effects of sin, including class divisions, hierarchy,

and oppression. It restores the original unity, fellowship, and community

between God and humans, and between men and women. It

reestablishes the God-designed equality of women and men.

 

The Jesus Paradigm and Redemption. During Christ’s life,

he exhibited in his teaching and practices the very qualities that were

prophesied: he touched lepers, spoke to women, and consorted with taxgatherers.

By doing so, Jesus modeled the new kingdom and challenged

the prevailing sexist and divisive prejudices, tearing down the divisions

and restrictions that had arisen as the result of sin. Jesus saw women as

persons of equal worth to men and rejected existing practices that devalued

women (see Matthew 19:29; 26:6-13; 27:55-56, 61; Mark 5:21-43;

10:11-12; 15:40-41, 47; Luke 10:38-42; 11:27-28; 13:10-17; 24:10-11;

John 4:7-42; 11:2-45; 12:1-8; 19:25). This pattern is evident in his teachings

(a woman plays the role of God in the parable of the lost coin) and

his actions (in clear violation of Jewish tradition, Jesus invited both men

and women to receive theological and spiritual instruction from him).

 

Jesus also taught and practiced servant leadership and the empowerment

of others. According to Jesus, leadership is about servanthood, not

authority. Passages in the Gospels such as Luke 22:24-30 and John 13:13-

17 record Jesus’ teaching on this subject and show that Jesus ushered in

a paradigm that was counter to the existing culture of hierarchical systems

and authority. The remainder of the New Testament continues this teaching

of servant leadership, emphasizing that spiritual gifts are given to serve

others and build the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12; Ephesians 4:11-

16; Philippians 2:3-11; Galatians 5:13; 1 Peter 5:2-3).

 

Most importantly, Jesus Christ came to fully redeem all people, women

as well as men. Paul emphasizes that all who believe in Christ are redeemed

from sin and become new creations. Not only do we who believe become

the children of God, and equal heirs, but we also become one in Christ.

These blessings come through our faith in Christ, independent of our

racial, social, physical, or gender distinctions (John 1:12-13; Romans 8:14-

17; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 3:26-28).

 

In the world, characteristics such as “maleness” or “femaleness” function

as primary markers of personal definition and are used to assign rank,

status, and worth. In Christ, we are instead defined by being a new creation

in Christ. As a result of becoming a new creation, a believer’s primary

identity is his or her new life in Christ. Our old identities—those

of gender, race, or social class—become secondary to our true identity in

Christ. In our culture, like that of Jesus and Paul, maleness and femaleness

matter. But our beliefs and practices ought not to be determined by

earthly cultures, as our citizenship is in heaven (Philippians 3:20).

 

The domination of one group by another group is one of the

effects of sin that Jesus came to abolish. In its stead the New Testament

affirms Christian community as marked by mutual interdependence,

where differences are not to be of any advantage or disadvantage (Galatians

3:28). The result is a new community with new kingdom realities.

 

For believers to continue subordinating other humans is contrary to our

new identities in Christ and contrary to the new kingdom community.

We can choose to model the coming eschatological community (Thy kingdom

come, on earth as it is in heaven), or we can choose a hierarchical

model conformed to this sinful world.

 

The New Kingdom and the Church as a Fellowship of Believers.

The New Testament gives a model for the fellowship of believers. At

Pentecost, the Holy Spirit filled both women and men alike, with no distinction

made on any basis. The Holy Spirit is sovereign and distributes

gifts without preference and without regard to the strictures of a fallen

world (Acts 2:1-21; 1 Corinthians 12:7, 11; 14:31).

 

As a result of this unbiased indwelling of the Holy Spirit, women were

involved in all ministry positions and activities, including apostle (Romans

16:7); prophetic speaking (Acts 1:14; 2:15-18; 21:9; 1 Corinthians 11:5,

10); serving as ministers, leaders, elders, or governors (Romans 16:1);

coworkers (Philippians 4:2-3; Romans 16:3-5; Acts 18:2, 18-19); and gifted

teachers who instructed men (Acts 18:24-26).

 

The Bible also teaches that after Pentecost, both women and men

receive spiritual gifts without regard to their gender, both are called to

exercise and develop these spiritual gifts, and both are called to be faithful

managers of those gifts that have been freely given to them (1 Peter

4:10-11). Both men and women are to use these divine gifts to serve one

another without restriction (Acts 1:14, 8:4, 21:8-9; Romans 16:1-7, 12-

13, 15; 1 Corinthians 12; Philippians 4:2-3; Colossians 4:15).

 

Based on these examples, we conclude that spiritual authority comes

from God and is not determined by our gender. Authority is a spiritual

function not a function based on our physical attributes. The result of

ministering to one another according to our spiritual gifts is that the church

becomes a true fellowship of believers characterized by mutual participation

in and sharing of the new life in Christ.

 

How does the church understand biblical passages that seem to

restrict women’s ministry in the church?

There are passages that seem to advocate a restrictive view of women

and their place within the Christian community, such as 1 Corinthians

11:2-16; 14:34-35; and 1 Timothy 2:9-15. To ignore any of the passages

relevant to this issue is to damage the integrity of the biblical witness and

to abdicate our responsibility to be biblical people. However, these passages,

though not entirely clear, must not be interpreted in a way that contradicts

the rest of Scripture. Space allows only summary consideration

of these texts.

 

First Corinthians 11:2-16 is among the most obtuse passages in the

New Testament, yet its main instructions are sufficiently clear. Paul offers

instruction on the decorum of those who pray and prophesy. To “prophesy”

in the Bible is to speak God’s word. Most often this takes the form

of cogent teaching delivered to the faithful at the behest of the Holy Spirit.5

This is the case in 1 Corinthians, where the term “prophecy” is aimed at

instruction and exhortation (14:31).

 

It is worth noting that the New Testament identifies men (Silas in

Acts 15:32) and women (the four daughters of Philip in Acts 21:9) with

the role of prophet. The combination of “pray” and “prophesy” suggests

that Paul is referring to public leadership and instruction of the saints.

Paul asserts the clear teaching of “nature” is that women should have their

heads covered while men should be bareheaded when praying and prophesying.

He then claims that women should have their heads covered because

of the angels, and because man is the image of God, while woman is the

image of man.

 

While the meanings of the allusions to nature, angels, and creation

are difficult to discern, the central issue in the passage is not. The question

is how women should conduct themselves while they pray and prophesy,

not whether or not they should pray and prophesy.

 

Paul’s argument about nature appears not to reference the created

order (after all, Genesis 1 asserts that male and female together are the

image of God, and as a Jew, Paul was aware of the vow mentioned in

Numbers 6:1-7 by which men did not cut their hair but allowed it to grow

long), but rather the then common cultural order of Roman civilization.

This is confirmed in verse 11 where the “natural” pattern of gender hierarchy

is set in contradistinction to the very different pattern of the Christian

community in which woman is as essential to man as man is to woman.

Similarly, it is possible that the term “angels” is a symbolic reference to

local customs and culture (see Revelation 2:1, 8, 12, 18; 3:1, 7, 14).

 

Whatever else may be said of this passage, it is clear that Paul believed

the Spirit led both women and men to pray and prophesy. The rub, as

with the discussion of the Eucharist that follows, is that many in the

Corinthian congregation were using the church to pursue their own worldly

agenda. They celebrated the Eucharist in emulation of pagan feasts that

reinforced social status. Paul claimed this practice indicated they had not

understood the leveling effects of the work of Christ: differences exist but

are not to be of any advantage or disadvantage in the body of Christ. Socially

pretentious women at this time chose to go about in public with their

heads uncovered in an attempt to assert social superiority. The point Paul

makes here, as with the Eucharist, is that he will not brook efforts at self-glorification that seek to use the Christian community to achieve that end.

 

In 1 Corinthians 14:34-35, Paul writes that women should keep silent

in the churches, that they should be submissive, and that if they want to

be taught, they should ask their husbands at home. At first blush this seems

a rather unbending injunction. However, we must remember that Paul

has already argued that women may pray and prophesy (chapter 11). We

should also not fail to note that Paul has in view not women generally but

wives whose questions about Christian theology and practice have apparently

disturbed the worship service. Paul commends their interest but

urges them to seek instruction at home.

 

In what is generally regarded as the most restrictive passage in Paul’s

letters, 1 Timothy 2:9-15, Paul claims that he permits no woman to teach

or to have authority. While this passage frequently is used to support

the claim that Paul (or the Bible as a whole) is against women having

authority in matters of Christian faith and practice, this can only be maintained

if 1 Corinthians and Romans, among other New Testament documents,

are removed from consideration. If Paul did not intend this text

as a universal principle for all cultures at all times, then there is no case

for restricting women in ministry.

 

How can this be understood? As always, we must look at the historical

context and translation issues. There are several reasonable explanations

of this passage that do not lead to the conclusion that Paul restricts

women for all time.

 

First, the word for “authority” (authentein) is rare in Greek literature,

and often means, “to domineer.” This definition makes more sense in the

passage than “authority,” as it explains Paul’s recourse to Genesis: it is not

God’s plan for women to domineer men, after all Eve was not created first

(1 Timothy 2:13-14). It is significant that Paul does not go on to argue

that men, therefore, have the right to domineer women. First Timothy

4:3 and 2 Timothy 3:6-7 indicate certain women in the church at Ephesus

had come under the influence of false teaching. In light of the fact that

heresy was beginning to appear in the church, Paul may be trying to silence

the heresy, not women. For example, his intent may have been to say,

“When women are the source of heresy, they are not allowed to teach,”

which is no different than his silencing of male heretics in Acts 18. It is

possible that Paul is suggesting that these women (i.e., heretical women)

should not be allowed to teach and so to domineer/to have authority.

 

It is also quite possible, even likely, that Paul is employing a poetic

device parallel to that used in Matthew 6:20 “where thieves do not break

in and steal.” The purpose of the first action is to accomplish the

second, that is, one breaks in with the purpose of stealing. Read in this

fashion Paul’s intent is to say, “I permit no woman to teach if her aim is

to domineer.”

 

One can conclude that it is possible that in these passages Paul offers

injunctions against women in leadership roles within the Christian community.

But, if so, they stand in stark contradiction to other clearly authoritative

passages where Paul strongly supports, expresses appreciation for,

and advocates for women in leadership roles in the church. Since the totality

of Scripture must inform our thinking and practice, and since Paul’s

thought on women and ministry ought to be consistent throughout his

letters, the passages seem to make the most sense when read as suggested

above. To claim that Paul did, indeed, intend to restrict women in ministry

for all time and all cultures is to attribute inconsistency to Paul and

his teaching, which creates a greater burden of proof than does our conclusion,

which is as follows:

 

Based on our examination of the Scriptures as a whole, we humbly

conclude that qualified men and women, whether clergy or lay,

are free to exercise their God-given gifts in all ministry and leadership

positions in the church. As a result, the Evangelical Covenant

Church licenses, commissions, and ordains qualified men and

women. We encourage our pastors and congregations to recognize,

develop, encourage, and use the spiritual gifts of women

and men, clergy or lay, in all areas of service, teaching, and leadership,

including preaching and pastoral roles.

47 Responses to “supporting women in all levels of leadership”

  1. emjay Says:

    Thanks for the great post. I’m among those–there are many of us, I suspect–who just aren’t sure what to think about this issue. I’ve read the ECC document before, and it has one glaring omission that needs to be addressed before I can in good conscience embrace an egalitarian view of women in ministry.

    The problem (for me) is this: Paul’s command in 1 Timothy 2 comes tantalizingly close to being a mere statement of personal preference, something like “Well, gee, guys… I’m not really into the whole woman pastor thing myself, but you know… Like, whatever.” But of course he doesn’t say that. In fact, he ends up going in exactly the opposite direction: he justifies his claim about male leadership in the very order of creation. “For Adam was made first, and then Eve.”

    I feel the force of the arguments posed in the ECC document above. But I can’t endorse the egalitarian viewpoint without having this problem in 1 Timothy squarely addressed. Any comments from thoughtful interpreters would be very much appreciated.

  2. John Says:

    I sympathize with your heart Eugene to be the voice for women. I’m sure there is not a Christian out there who wants to make sure women receive fair and loving treatment in the church and outside of it as well. Christianity is all about loving God and loving our neighbors, who were created in God’s image.

    But most arguments in favor of women being elders and pastors is based on a faulty premise. The premise is this… If women are not given the chance to be elders and pastors, then the church is not being fair and loving towards women. I disagree. For every church, there are only a few elders. This does not mean the rest of the church is given unfair and unloving treatment.

    Second, in the ECC document under the “Effects of Sin,” it says, “As a result of sin, Adam began to rule over Eve.” The proof text given is Genesis 3:16. But isn’t this verse talking about the curse of the woman’s sin? God’s punishment for the woman is that her desire to rule over her husband will be frustrated and unfulfilled. The very next verse talks about the punishment for the man’s sin. Genesis 3:17 says that the man’s sin was listening to his wife by eating from the tree which God commanded him not to eat of.

    This explains why Paul would say in 1 Timothy 2:12-14, “I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.”

    And the very next passage after 1 Timothy 2:12-14 is 1 Timothy 3 which talks about the qualifications of elders and deacons, specifically stating they are to be men. If Paul wanted to make himself clear so that people don’t misunderstand his intention, then he would have clearly stated, “In the previous passage, I said women are not permitted to have authority over a man; she must be silent. But I only meant that in certain situations. They can still be elders and deacons. Here are the qualifications for elders and deacons for both men and women.” But Paul doesn’t say that. In 1 Timothy 3, Paul clearly lists the qualifications for elders and deacons as being for men for the very reason he gave in the previous passage in 1 Timothy 2:12-14.

    Third, in the ECC document section entitled “The New Kingdom and the Church as a Fellowship of Believers,” there seems to be a lot of free and loose interpretations with Scripture passages to make it appear that scripture passages support women in all ministry positions. Take for example using Romans 16:1 to claim that women served as ministers, leaders, elders, or governers. Romans 16:1 says, “I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church in Cenchrea.” How ministers, leaders, elders, and governors is taken from “our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church” is beyond my interpretive skills.

    I could go on and on poking holes in the ECC document on this issue, but I don’t want to take up too much space. In conclusion, being a man is only one qualification for being an elder or a deacon. 1 Timothy 3 lists so many other qualities needed, such as being a good husband, a good father, being generous, sober, gentle, hospitable, etc. Prayer and humility are truly needed to be the kind of elder and deacon God wants for His church. Thanks for taking the time to read this in a thoughtful manner.

  3. Randall Says:

    Two things.

    First, I believe there’s room enough in the Body of Christ for both positions. Does this mean I believe scripture has no meaning? Well on foundational issues like the divinity of Christ, I believe the Bible speaks clearly and those choose to believe something else are probably outside of what it is to be a Christian. But on secondary issues I think there should be much grace and healthy debate. Maybe some will disagree, but I think the issue of women serving in ministry is a secondary issue that well meaning, sincere Christians can agree to disagree on.

    I have lots more I could say about that but I’ll leave it there for now.

    The second point I want to put forward is in three of the four Gospels, the risen Jesus appears first to women and instructs them to tell the other disciples that he has risen. This is no accident, particularly as the event is portrayed in John where some of the disciples are there with Mary Magdalene at the empty tomb but Jesus seems to wait until the men are gone before revealing himself.

    I don’t know how strong of a case this is, but I think if Jesus wasn’t cool with women teaching men, he wouldn’t have allowed women to be the first to witness and share the earth-shattering news that he has risen from the dead and that the reign of the Kingdom of God had begun.

  4. Jennifer Says:

    For me its pretty simple…on the day of Pentecost, the Spirit is poured out on both men and women. Peter recites the prophecy of Joel that both men and women will receive the gifts of the spirit.

    If the spirit gives men and women the same gifts, the church is to use both of them. Why should women have to go into the business world to use the gifts the spirit has given them?

  5. LN Says:

    Many people use one or two of pieces of scripture, the most common being 1 Corinthians 14:34 to say why women shouldn’t be in church leadership. Like all scriptures though, this should be viewed as to who the letter was written to and why, what was happening then etc rather than taking it out of context. Conveniently scriptures which refer to women and Gods feminine traits are ignored. Constantly throughout the bible God is referred to as being like a mother. Maybe one of the best passages is Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.”

    Jesus surrounded himself with women. After his death the first person he revealed himself to was a women. He called the church the Bride of Christ, and he is the groom. There are many women - a handful of them deaconesses, and possibly apostles who feature in Acts and Paul’s letters in the new testament - Lydia, Priscilla, Phoeba, Tryphena, Tryphosa to name but a few.

    I think a lot of it comes down to power and dominance. If we, as Christians, are going to get picky and say “it says …” in the bible, then we have to follow the bible literally. We can’t just pick and choose the pieces we like and don’t like. Realistically that’s what it’s like though - “I agree with that scripture, so I’ll follow that, I don’t agree with that though, so I’ll ignore it.”

    Women have a lot to offer. Maybe some men feel threatened by that? Some start going on about women who want to be in leadership are just feminists. That is wrong. A lot of us are not feminists. We are just seeking to be reckonised for what we have to offer and can bring to the conversation, to be respected and made to feel like our opinions count and are listened to, not just brushed under the carpet because we are female. God has given many women great gifts, which go way beyond hospitality and banner making. Men and Women in church leadership must be reflected as a healthy balance of both sexes, who complement each other and bring completeness to the Body of Christ.

  6. Beth P. Says:

    Eugene,
    Thanks for inviting people to this conversation. People are sometimes afraid to have this together for the fear of being labeled a heretic or a narrow minded fundamentalst. I appreciate your encouragement for us to be respectful.

    I just wanted to make a comment to remind people that this isn’t just about men vs women on the issue. There are women out there as well who do not support the egaliatiarn view. FWIW.

  7. Matt EHH Says:

    I wish I had time to weigh in the scriptural study. I just wanted to commend the comments posted up until now. Gender is such a powerful and vital issue in the church it seems really difficult to discuss without being divisive. It’s a breath of fresh air to see thoughtful discourse without the all to often defense and attack stuff.

  8. Paul Says:

    Eugene~ first, thanks for all your posting that you do. I stumbled upon you when you were posting updates on the Korean hostage crisis some time ago. Why the church was so silent on that situation, I’ll never know, but your posts informed my prayer life during that time. Thank you.

    As to the issue of women in leadership, you raised a valuable question before introducing the ECC document: how do we read the bible? It is THE question before us always. Many of us answer this question by studying on up on dead languages, consulting tomes of biblical scholarship, and then shooting in the dark to come up with our answers. Some seek conversation with others who wrestle with this stuff. Many of us want to be true to the text.

    I’m a Lutheran, and we have a valuable lesson from Martin Luther on how to read the bible. He said that the bible is the cradle of Christ. It is what holds Christ for us in this world. He would often disparage certain portions that didn’t lead to any perceived revelation of Christ. He often remarked on how James was a letter of straw because it led to a place where we begin to trust our works over our faith. In the end, he introduced the “Christological Hermeneutic”, and I’ve always taken this to mean that we read the bible through the lens of Jesus. We ought to strive to read the bible as Jesus read the bible. I like to say that the baby in the cradle determines how we see that cradle to begin with.

    In the sermon on the mount, we receive some insight into how exactly Jesus read the bible. On the sermon on the mount, Jesus starts, in my estimation, throwing aside major tenets of the bible and rewriting them in his reign of God message. “You have seen it written an eye for an eye…BUT I SAY TO YOU…” Here, we see Jesus weighing some scripture more heavily over others as definitive of what it means to live in the Way that he came to give us. Again, when asked what the greatest commandments were, he gives us the “Jesus Creed” pairing. In a bible full of commandments, why just those two? Isn’t it important that we understand why Jesus lifts up some parts over others?

    Rob Bell in his book “Velvelt Elvis” takes us inside the interpretative task of Jesus as a Jewish Rabbi. He says that disciples received the “yoke” of the rabbi they followed. The “yoke” was how the rabbi read the bible specifically. “Come to me those who are heavy burdened,” Jesus says. “Take my yoke, it’s lighter.” (my paraphrase).

    What is Jesus’ yoke in this particular situation? That’s a question worth wrestling with. How would Jesus read Paul’s statements? Would he agree with them? It’s hard to know the mind of Jesus here, but it’s a question worth asking.

    As for me, if God thought it was good enough to be born of a woman, if God thought it was good enough to reveal the resurrection to women, if God thought it was good to give his Spirit to women, why not let them be in positions of leadership in the church, provided that they participate in the same protocol we expect of those in churchly leadership (to live a gospel life, be of sound mind and reason, and be called by the church and Holy Spirit for leadership)?

  9. Tyler Says:

    im doing a short series on the same topic. i appreciate hearing your thoughts with more depth this time around. im sure this will generate a great discussion.

  10. Jeff Lam Says:

    here’s nt wright’s thoughts on women in leadership. here, he addresses the common proof-texts taken from galatians, 1 cor, 1 tim, and then some. it’s an accessible article written by a well-respected theologian (to say the least).

    http://www.ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Women_Service_Church.htm

  11. Tyler Says:

    hey jeff…

    i’ve read wright’s paper before. his explanation for 1st timothy 2 is confusing at best. he even says something like, this probably won’t make sense but here i go…i think what he says about the other passages is pretty solid, but i think he did a pretty poor job of explaining the passage in 1st timothy.

  12. Sarah Says:

    @Paul: Thank you. I couldn’t have said that any better. We worship Jesus and not the Bible. This doesn’t mean we throw out the Bible. Hardly at all! Often times, I feel like because I support women in ministry, the assumption is that I don’t take the Bible seriously. But we have to see everything through the Lens of Jesus. He is the Revelation of God, right? He is the Word Incarnate, right?

  13. Beth P. Says:

    Per NT Wright on 1 Timothy:

    1 Timothy 2

    I leave completely aside for today the question of who wrote 1 Timothy. It is more different from the rest of Paul than any of the other letters, including the other Pastorals and 2 Thessalonians. But I do not discount it for that reason; many of us write in many different styles according to occasion and audience, and though that doesn’t remove all the problems it ought to contextualize them. What matters, and matters vitally in a great many debates, is of course what the passage says. I don’t think I’m exaggerating when I suggest that it is this passage far and away above all others which has been the sheet-anchor for those who want to deny women a place in the ordained ministry of the church, with full responsibilties for preaching, presiding at the Eucharist, and exercising leadership within congregations and indeed dioceses.

    Once again the matter is of course very vexed and much fought over, and I have not read more than a fraction of the enormous literature that has been produced on the passage. I simply give my opinion for what it is worth. And once again I am drawing here on what I have said in my recent popular-level commentary on the passage. This time I acknowledge the help of another old friend, Christopher Bryan of the University of the South at Sewanee, whose sensitive work on the classical context is as always very stimulating.

    When people say that the Bible enshrines patriarchal ideas and attitudes, this passage, particularly verse 12, is often held up as the prime example. Women mustn’t be teachers, the verse seems to say; they mustn’t hold any authority over men; they must keep silent. That, at least, is how many translations put it. This, as I say, is the main passage that people quote when they want to suggest that the New Testament forbids the ordination of women. I was once reading these verses in a church service and a woman near the front exploded in anger, to the consternation of the rest of the congregation (even though some agreed with her). The whole passage seems to be saying that women are second-class citizens at every level. They aren’t even allowed to dress prettily. They are the daughters of Eve, and she was the original troublemaker. The best thing for them to do is to get on and have children, and to behave themselves and keep quiet.

    Well, that’s how most people read the passage in our culture until quite recently. I fully acknowledge that the very different reading I’m going to suggest may sound to begin with as though I’m simply trying to make things easier, to tailor this bit of Paul to fit our culture. But there is good, solid scholarship behind what I’m going to say, and I genuinely believe it may be the right interpretation.

    When you look at strip cartoons, ‘B’ grade movies, and ‘Z’ grade novels and poems, you pick up a standard view of how ‘everyone imagines’ men and women behave. Men are macho, loud-mouthed, arrogant thugs, always fighting and wanting their own way. Women are simpering, empty-headed creatures, with nothing to think about except clothes and jewellery. There are ‘Christian’ versions of this, too: the men must make the decisions, run the show, always be in the lead, telling everyone what to do; women must stay at home and bring up the children. If you start looking for a biblical back-up for this view, well, what about Genesis 3? Adam would never have sinned if Eve hadn’t given in first. Eve has her punishment, and it’s pain in childbearing (Genesis 3.16).

    Well, you don’t have to embrace every aspect of the women’s liberation movement to find that interpretation hard to swallow. Not only does it stick in our throat as a way of treating half the human race; it doesn’t fit with what we see in the rest of the New Testament, in the passages we’ve already glanced at.

    The key to the present passage, then, is to recognise that it is commanding that women, too, should be allowed to study and learn, and should not be restrained from doing so (verse 11). They are to be ‘in full submission’; this is often taken to mean ‘to the men’, or ‘to their husbands’, but it is equally likely that it refers to their attitude, as learners, of submission to God or to the gospel – which of course would be true for men as well. Then the crucial verse 12 need not be read as ‘I do not allow a woman to teach or hold authority over a man’ – the translation which has caused so much difficulty in recent years. It can equally mean (and in context this makes much more sense): ‘I don’t mean to imply that I’m now setting up women as the new authority over men in the same way that previously men held authority over women.’ Why might Paul need to say this?

    There are some signs in the letter that it was originally sent to Timothy while he was in Ephesus. And one of the main things we know about religion in Ephesus is that the main religion – the biggest Temple, the most famous shrine – was a female-only cult. The Temple of Artemis (that’s her Greek name; the Romans called her Diana) was a massive structure which dominated the area; and, as befitted worshippers of a female deity, the priests were all women. They ruled the show and kept the men in their place.

    Now if you were writing a letter to someone in a small, new religious movement with a base in Ephesus, and wanted to say that because of the gospel of Jesus the old ways of organising male and female roles had to be rethought from top to bottom, with one feature of that being that the women were to be encouraged to study and learn and take a leadership role, you might well want to avoid giving the wrong impression. Was the apostle saying, people might wonder, that women should be trained up so that Christianity would gradually become a cult like that of Artemis, where women did the leading and kept the men in line? That, it seems to me, is what verse 12 is denying. The word I’ve translated ‘try to dictate to them’ is unusual, but seems to have the overtones of ‘being bossy’ or ‘seizing control’. Paul is saying, like Jesus in Luke 10, that women must have the space and leisure to study and learn in their own way, not in order that they may muscle in and take over the leadership as in the Artemis-cult, but so that men and women alike can develop whatever gifts of learning, teaching and leadership God is giving them.

    What’s the point of the other bits of the passage, then?

    The first verse (8) is clear: the men must give themselves to devout prayer, and must not follow the normal stereotypes of ‘male’ behaviour: no anger or arguing. Then verses 9 and 10 follow, making the same point about the women. They must be set free from their stereotype, that of fussing all the time about hair-dos, jewellry, and fancy clothes – but they must be set free, not in order that they can be dowdy, unobtrusive little mice, but so that they can make a creative contribution to the wider society. The phrase ‘good works’ in verse 10 sounds pretty bland to us, but it’s one of the regular ways people used to refer to the social obligation to spend time and money on people less fortunate than oneself, to be a benefactor of the town through helping public works, the arts, and so on.

    Why then does Paul finish off with the explanation about Adam and Eve? Remember that his basic point is to insist that women, too, must be allowed to learn and study as Christians, and not be kept in unlettered, uneducated boredom and drudgery. Well, the story of Adam and Eve makes the point well: look what happened when Eve was deceived. Women need to learn just as much as men do. Adam, after all, sinned quite deliberately; he knew what he was doing, and that it was wrong, and went ahead deliberately. The Old Testament is very stern about that kind of action.

    And what about the bit about childbirth? Paul doesn’t see it as a punishment. Rather, he offers an assurance that, though childbirth is indeed difficult, painful and dangerous, often the most testing moment in a woman’s life, this is not a curse which must be taken as a sign of God’s displeasure. God’s salvation is promised to all, women and men, who follow Jesus in faith, love, holiness and prudence. And that salvation is promised to those who contribute to God’s creation through childbearing, just as it is to everyone else. Becoming a mother is hard enough, God knows, without pretending it’s somehow an evil thing. Let’s not leave any more unexploded bombs and mines around for people to blow their minds with. Let’s read this text as I believe it was intended, as a way of building up God’s church, men and women, women and men alike. And, just as Paul was concerned to apply this in one particular situation, so we must think and pray carefully about where our own cultures, prejudices and angers are taking us, and make sure we conform, not to any of the different stereotypes the world offers, but to the healing, liberating, humanizing message of the gospel of Jesus.

    How then would I translate the passage to bring all this out? As follows:

    So this is what I want: the men should pray in every place, lifting up holy hands, with no anger or disputing. 9In the same way the women, too, should clothe themselves in an appropriate manner, modestly and sensibly. They should not go in for elaborate hair-styles, or gold, or pearls, or expensive clothes; 10instead, as is appropriate for women who profess to be godly, they should adorn themselves with good works. 11They must be allowed to study undisturbed, in full submission to God. 12I’m not saying that women should teach men, or try to dictate to them; they should be left undisturbed. 13Adam was created first, you see, and then Eve; 14and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived, and fell into trespass. 15She will, however, be kept safe through the process of childbirth, if she continues in faith, love and holiness with prudence.”

  14. Jennifer Says:

    Tyler,

    The most confusing thing about the 1 TIm 2 passage is that right after the statements that women should learn in full submission, Paul says that women will be kept safe through childbirth if they continue in faith. It makes no sense unless you take that “childbirth” to be metaphorical. Its not that she is giving birth - she herslef is experiencing a new birth. Becaus of Jesus, women have a new place…NT Wright is pointing out that Paul is really saying : let the women study uninterrupted so that they will come through this new birth process safely, help them not to be distracted by fancy hair/clothes, let them study so they can take their new place in life. Men have already had a long chance to study - now it is women’s turn (adam was created first, and then eve). When Jesus was resurrected he turned first to a woman to teach her what it means for him to be alive again. Paul is just continuing that thought - let the women study so they can take their proper place as ones on whom the Spirit gives all gifts.

  15. eugenecho Says:

    i agree that the ECC document does have its holes but what doesn’t? If it was absolutely clear, we wouldn’t be having this discussion, right? It shows the importance of one’s hermeneutics in reading the Bible. I think Paul did a great job summarizing the substance behind the question I posed: “How we read the Bible?”

    I love the Scriptures. I have no problem at all saying that it is the Word of God but for us to ignore that the inspired Scriptures was written to a particular people, context, situation, culture and world would be diminishing its authenticy, integrity, and ultimately, authority.

    I’ll attempt to write more later but today is one of those “many meetings day.” Thank you for engaging thoughtfully and respectfully in this dialogue.

    And on another note, please keep the situation in Burma/Myanmar in prayer. Some contacts we have are estimateing the current death toll at 22,000 with at least 41,000 more people missing. We’re hoping to gather some funds to help with water purification and distribution in the coming days.

  16. daniel so Says:

    Eugene — Thank you for hosting this very important conversation. As you point out, this issue ultimately comes down to how we interpret Scripture. The very act of reading Scripture is interpretive and every church community lives out their particular interpretation.

    As LN says above, it’s not enough to simply argue that women should not be in church leadership because “the Bible says so.” If that’s the interpretive principle, then in these communities, women should not speak at all and the men should start growing out their sideburns and beards (because “the Bible says so” about those things to).

    I happen to agree with Eugene’s perspective here — that the overarching biblical narrative paints a picture in which both women and men can, and should, serve in all levels of church leadership. However, I can see how others might come to a different conclusion (although, I still have a very hard time with those who just use Scripture to reinforce their cultural notions of gender roles).

    As Beth P. points out, there is an overwhelming amount of scholarship out there on this topic. As people of the Word, it’s vital for us to search the Scriptures with honesty, humility and integrity.

  17. Julie Clawson Says:

    Eugene - thanks for hosting this. These sorts of conversations can be hard, especially for women since they often end up with a bunch of men debating if women are inferior or not. What some see as merely a theological/intellectual issue cuts at the core of who women are. I just think a reminder that women aren’t a generic theological topic, but real people with real callings and real feelings should always be given when this topic arises.

    What always bugs me as well is that yes those who restrict women do so because they think it is biblical, but they often refuse to admit that some of us are egalitarians because of the bible as well. Usually we are accused of just being influenced by culture and throwing out the bible. I became an egalitarian kicking and screaming because of the bible, I could no longer deny what I was reading. The issue is getting people to admit that biblical interpretation exists. I fully admit that we all pick and choose which parts of the bible we emphasize and we all choose the interpretation that makes the most sense to us. having the humility to admit those things is necessary for any conversation like this to take place. (see Scot McKnight’s upcoming book The Blue Parakeet for a fantastic treatment of interpretation and how it relates to the women in ministry issue)

    To me understanding the context of scripture and seeing how interpretive opinions have influenced translations has made a big difference. Of course one won’t see Phoebe as a leader if her title is translated servant instead of the more accurate deacon. Or if the translators change Junia to a male name because she is called an apostle. Similarly if pastors never preach on many passages that mention the work of women in the bible, people will assume they never did anything. Its easy to employ a couple of passages that seem to restrict women while ignore those where they are out there serving.

    I agree that the most logical way to interpret the 1 Tim passage is in light of the Artemis cults. women in these cults would stand in town squares to proclaim their message, if Christian women were being influenced by this of course they would be told to learn in submission. These cults taught women were created before men and so had authority over men. Many scholars believe that translating the passage as “I do not permit a woman to teach that she is the source of man” is the more accurate translation (even if it challenges the traditional phrasing). The saved in childbirth passage makes sense as well then given that it was common for women to implore Artemis to save them (help them live through) childbirth. Instead they are asked to trust in their christian faith to be protected in labor (which often had a nearly 50% mortality rate).

    This is all biblical. And while yes, fairness and equity are part of why women should be treated as humans created in God’s image, there are strong biblical reasons as well for not restricting half the human race.

  18. Women in Leadership « Godspace Says:

    [...] on May 6, 2008 by Christine Sine My friend Eugene Cho has just published an excellent  post on Women in Leadership which expresses not only his views but also those of the Covenant church.  First let me say how [...]

  19. Ben Says:

    I support women in leadership at church and elsewhere. No question.

  20. adey wassink Says:

    I am a woman pastor. I have great resonance with Julie’s opening paragraphs. I don’t want to be debated by men and I don’t want to be “cared for” as someone alluded to earlier. The notion that our debate is all about Scripture is questionable to me. On the one hand, if that is correct it is clear we we stand little chance of resolution. John Piper and Wayne Grudem will continue to write why my very vocation is heretical while authors like those cited above or Kevin Giles, Gilbert Bilezikian or Sarah Sumner will legitimate my daily grind. What if in the end we find it isn’t about validating our beliefs through Scripture? What if it turns out to be about power and insecurity. What if it turns out to be about comfortability? What if thousands of years of patriarchy and a church that is steeped in patriarchal systems has obscured our understanding of the Gospel? What if our very judgments obscure our reading of God’s Word.

  21. beattieblog Says:

    Eugene - thanks for steering this dialogue / debate back into scripture. I get weary of the ‘proof-texting’ approach sometimes, but as Julie Clawson says above, a frustrating experience for me as an egalitarian is that my viewpoint is labeled as unbibilical. Like Julie, I was not egalitarian for a long time. It was thru good teaching on Paul and Jesus that changed my understanding here. So much has been said that I won’t try and preach or exegete too much. I’ll just say that I think you need to 1) Pull passages like the aforementioned I Timothy verse OUT of context to hold a complimentarian view. In Genesis, you cannot teach primacy because Adam was created first. Adam was incomplete without Eve and Eve was incomplete without Adam. They needed each other. Here are some less scriptural aspects of the debate I regularly encounter:
    1) IMHO, the many complimentarians I know(n) seem threatened by women being in primary leadership anbd teaching from the pulpit. As if allowing women to be ‘in charge’ in a given congregation = a loss for men. Why?
    2) Egalitarians are stereo-typed as really being fueled by a feminist cultural philosophy that wants to do away with gender roles / differences. I think women and men have tremendously different roles to play and when they lead, they lead very differently. George Barna, evey evangelical’s favorite pollster, said when asked what happens when women lead: a) more people are invited into the process and feel included; and b) women usually have better initial instincts for the correct way to address problems.
    3) The complimentarian and traditionalist viewpoint on this issue have to do something we don’t do with any other issue in scripture: hold dogmatically to a position that is supported by about 5 verses in the face of many more verses that piont to greater freedom and the opportunity for women to express fully their gifts. There is no other issue where we say here are 10 verses that point to X but I will hold to Y because I can pull out 5 verses that seem to contradict this. We do not do this with any other issue. It would be like taking James 2:17 and saying we are not justified before God unless we work for our salvation (i.e. earn) when the rest of the NT is clear it is by faith and grace that we are justified before God.
    4) Complimentarians and traditionalists need to be more honest / aware of the way Greek philosophy and historical patriarchy have influenced their theology on the issue. Augustine and Aquinas are theological giants worthy of a special place in heaven for their work in understanding scripture and defending the faith. But they were dead wrong on the issue of women. Aquinas goes straight to Aristotle (not Jesus or Paul) and quotes him verbaitm in describing women as “mis-begotten men”. It is not a biblical understanding of creation and the imago dei to say women are some kind of marred version of men. I realize we aren’t living in the 13th century, but Aquinas may be the single biggest shaper of modern theology (Catholic and Protestant alike) and we should be honest about everything that shaped his view of women.
    5) Women and homosexuality: this is (one of) the big elephants in the room here. Repeatedly, I have had complimentarians (men and women btw) say to me, “you can’t preach this way about women because I just know homosexuality is around the corner.” If this is the case, then every complimentarian church better have head coverings for women and a pair of clippers at the church door for men. I think this ‘fear’ regardind homosexuality is used as a way to keep women out of leadership. But they are two different issues in scripture and are treated very differently throughout the bible (e.g. there’s is a clear trajectory towards greater and greater freedom for women through the bible that, regardless of where you stand on homosexuality, you do not see for homosexuals).

    Don Williams, long time Vineyard pastor (originally a very complimentarian movement)and prof. at Fuller Sem and Claremont College has a good article on Genesis and the created order as well here: http://www.kingdomrain.net/content/view/64/33/1/2

    Thanks again for making to space

  22. Catherine Says:

    Like you wrote, Eugene, this is a “controversy” that will never end. Respectfully, I just have to refrain from some conversations because 1) it’s a losing and exhausting battle, 2) I’m not a subject, 3) I don’t need men to caring for me (even if their intentions are good), and finally, many women need to move on and do what they are called to do.

  23. Rose Says:

    Eugene,
    I am weary of the theological debate. Weary…for those that are really wanting to understand biblically, theologically how it is women can hold any place of leadership in the church I bless them in their journey. There is so much scholarly work out there (and cited on this blog) for people to come to a conclusion without all of us having to rehearse it here in depth.

    In the meantime, for those that want to get “past permission” I would like to envision the ways we (men and women) can empower and equip every person, “Jew and non-Jew, slave and free, male and female” to live out what they are called by God to do in this life.

    You see this is not a “secondary” issue for me. This is a “justice” issue. Jesus is the focal point of all history — he broke the curse and created a new humanity. I am part of that humanity that is partnering with God through Jesus and empowered by the Holy Spirit to be about justice — (or as N.T. Wright would say) putting things to rights.

    My too cents

  24. Rose Says:

    I am so tired I misspelled “two” :)

  25. leahklug Says:

    @ adey: thanks for your words. I wonder how honest we all are in separating power and privilege from scriptural interpretation (if such a thing were even entirely possible).

    I agree wholeheartedly with both the ECC positions on women in leadership, and NT Wright’s insightful comments. I would argue that the issue of women in ministry is not peripheral; rather it is a justice issue. (Rose, you beat me to it here) Are we really so keen on establishing a gender-based hierarchy reflecting the brokenness of our world, or are we called to dream and put into practice the kingdom reality Jesus teaches of in Matthew 6:9-15? Are we called to overturn the socioeconomically, racially, and gender divided society of our time as Jesus overturned the moneychanger’s tables in the temple? I would say yes. We are called to live out the intended shalom of all creation, that original vision in Genesis when equality before God was the created order.

    Honestly, I have no desire to get into a battle over whose interpretation is smarter than/better than/more correct, and I agree with Ryan Beatty that most often we aren’t reading scripture for ourselves, but are so often looking through lenses shaped by Aquinas, Augustine, and other early church leaders whose cultural context led them (as it did even Martin Luther) to believe women were sub-human, good only for childbearing, and could never approach equality with men. Honestly, we need to exegete the context of our Christianity and learn to separate it from Scripture as we consider what it is Scripture is saying.

    Finally, it always amazes me that so many men weigh in on whether or not women should be allowed in ministry. That you who are able to take for granted that you are called by God find it necessary to determine whether or not another person created in the image of God could possibly be given the same calling strikes me as astonishingly hubristic. That it could be said without exception or discussion that women are never gifted or called to lead a congregation is not a theological view that reflects any sort of care for women, or openness to the outpouring of the Spirit. To those who hold the opposite view, and claim to care for the women in their congregation, or to those who believe there is room for both views, I respectfully disagree. You have absolutely no idea, speaking of men here, what it feels like to have your very identity the subject of continual challenge and discussion. When I speak with someone who does not believe women should be in leadership, I feel that my humanity before God is not recognized, that my calling is invalidated, and that my ministry is seen as ‘less than’. I relate to the exhaustion of Catherine and others, and wonder if there will be a day before the Day of the Lord when we in the Evangelical church won’t have to have this discussion any longer.

  26. eugenecho Says:

    @catherine: i understand. you’re a grown woman and you don’t need folks like me to care after you as if you’re a child. it has never been my intent to “care for” women or my female colleagues in ministry in that kind of a way. as others have said, it’s a justice issue. if it’s what i believe God intended and Jesus restored and the Spirit equipped, then I want to be on board with it. i’m not here looking for brownie points.

    @everyone else: i can imagine [just a little bit] how exhausting this and other conversations must be. it is an uphill battle. and i understand why some women choose to remove themselves altogether from such conversations and do what they are called to do.

    but these converations are important because in every context, culture, and generation, we will need to repeat these conversations. doesn’t that suck? when i became a christian, i was also taught the “biblical view” of complementarianism and it was only through these difficult converstions and debates [to be honest] that gave me the courage to see the Scriptures beyond what I was told to believe.

  27. bleek Says:

    a noob to this site, and monumentally impressed. i offer a comment with full humility, as it may have arisen many times elsewhere - forgive me if this is an unwitting re-post.

    re: I Tim 2 - seems that there is a huge backstory with the Artemis cult that must be factored into the discussion. specifically, “saved through childbearing” appears to have nothing to do with eschatological salvation and everything to do with present, physical preservation through the actual event of giving birth. all attempts to harmonize, spiritualize, or otherw-ize resolve what is clearly an anti-grace understanding (i.e., if women have children, they get a free pass to heaven) fall short. the flow of thought for that passage is so bizarre (why mention order of creation?); surely the readers have a cultural script running through their minds we need to access: “women, worship Artemis and she will be your salvific midwife.” everything inside Paul (assumed author) recoils at such a heinous hope.

    may God grant us the grace to offer real hope to our gifted women. my holy hands are lifted :-)

    thanks for allowing me to visit.

  28. Jennifer Says:

    Bleek,

    But, if “saved through childbirht” means literal childbirth, that’s a pretty odd verse. Before the last 75 years, do you know how many women died in childbirth? It seems odd to say that women of faith would not be harmed in literal childbirth since we know that all kinds of women died during the process. That just makes no sense.

    I think the childbirth is metaphorical - it is the woman’s own birth in a metaphorical sense. Her birth from the world of being uneducated property, to being someone that is allowed to learn and lead. She will be safe during that birth.

  29. beattieblog Says:

    Catherine, I hear you on not needing to be cared for. I chime in because of the leadership positions I’ve been in and because I have a daughter and wife. It is a justice issue - if you believe scriptures to not restrict women’s ability / calling to lead, then, as Rob Bell recently said in front of me, the other interpretation is wrong. We can be respectful in our debate and there was a time when I just said, well, there are two interpretations here. I’m past that point now because I see how it pains women who are friends and colleagues ministering in denominations and churches they care about but feel ‘minimized’ by. Some women come to the point of finally leaving groups who haven’t supported their call to lead, but even if that brings eventual liberation into calling, it’s still painful particularly if there’s great history with said group.

    Bleek - I really like your take on the “anti-grace” understanding of women being saved through childbearing. That’s another helpful pointer back to the cultural context of Paul’s words.

  30. John Says:

    I have read the comments written up to this point, probably in response to my comment (2nd from the top). In reading the comments, I sensed a lot of emotions, especially angry and hurt feelings. I apologize for any anger or hurt my first comment may have caused.

    I hope what I write next will help some people understand where I am coming from. I hope I will be shown grace and not be judged or have my intentions and thoughts assumed by others. My intention is to correctly understand the biblical qualifications of the offices of elder and deacon. It is not to debate in a cold, uncaring way the rights of women. I wholeheartedly embrace the rights of women. I know plenty of women who are smart and capable. It is insulting for people to falsely assume that I interpret this passage in this way, because I am intimidated by women in leadership roles. I would appreciate not having my thoughts or intentions assumed.

    In approaching my interpretation of 1 Timothy 2 in light of Genesis 3:16 (Paul often alludes to the Old Testament for support, not to cultural details), I had in mind the offices of elder and deacon, which 1 Timothy 3 talks about. This is the scriptural context. The strongest and primary context of biblical interpretation is scripture itself - what comes before and after. 1 Timothy 2:12-14 is written in the context of Paul discussing the offices of elder and deacon. Of course there are historical contexts and cultural contexts to consider, but these are secondary or tertiary. These historical and cultural contexts must inform the scriptural context, not supercede what scripture plainly says. The primary biblical interpretation principle is that scripture interprets scripture. That is what the apostle Paul does. He refers to OT scripture to back up his point. He refers to the events of Genesis to back up his point. He does not point to culture for support. It does not serve the Christian community if we assume thoughts that Paul had or did not have.

    I wonder if Eugene can comment on his interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:12-14 in its scriptural context, because 1 Timothy 2:12-14 truly is one of the most important and primary scripture texts on this issue of the biblical qualifications of the offices of elder and deacon.

    Also, it would be very beneficial if Eugene could comment on ECC’s incorrect view of Genesis 3:16 that the effect of sin is man’s rule over woman. The correct interpretation of Genesis 3:16 seems to be that Genesis 3:16 states that God’s punishment for the woman’s sin is to leave her desire to rule over her husband unsatisfied and unfulfilled. Genesis 3:16 seems to be a very crucial passage that serves as a foundational underpinning of ECC’s view of the role of women and the offices of elder and deacon. If the effect of sin is not man’s rule over woman, then the ECC cannot hold to the idea that Christ came to reverse the effect of sin of man’s rule over woman. Rather, Christ came to reverse the sinful desire of the woman to rule over her husband.

    Even though we should focus on the main texts, I will respond to some of the secondary and tertiary arguments… It does not flow logically to make the case that just because Jesus appeared first to a woman after His resurrection that women are qualified to be elders and deacons. The following is not a perfect illustration, but I’m just trying to make the main point. It’s like arguing… because Howard Dean appeared first to Hillary Clinton, she should be the Democratic presidential nominee over Barack Obama. Appearing first to a person does not make that person qualified for an office. If I came back from the dead, the first people I would appear to would be the women in my life - my wife and my mother so that they know that I’m alive. This does not make them qualified for office just because I appeared to them first. And asking them to pass along the message that I’m alive does not constitute a teaching or prophetic office. If you look at Luke 24, Jesus does His Scriptural teaching to the disciples on the way to Emmaus. He takes them through all the writings of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms to explain that all the Scriptures are about Him.

    Second, in Acts 2 at Pentecost, the prophecy of Joel was fulfilled through the twelve apostles. They were the ones upon whom the tongues of fire came. They were the ones who prophesied by speaking in other tongues or languages. But prophesying ended with the completion of the Scriptures. The only official offices we have are that of ministers, elders, and deacons. These are the leadership titles mentioned in the New Testament for the church.

    In further comments and responses, I hope we can stick with scriptural interpretation and not on personal attacks or assumptions of what others are thinking or grouping all men from generation to generation into one monolithic slab and making all-inclusive generalizations.

  31. Catherine Says:

    John,
    You seem like a nice guy. Some of the posts that were written had nothing to do with you so your opening sentence was not necessary.

    While we talk about these issues, don’t get too offended by statements that seem like personal attacks or assumptions. Why? Because it is inevitable.

  32. bleek Says:

    @Jennifer - you’re dead on. many died. they still do. so do men. the sting has not been removed…yet.

    what I am attempting to communicate is that women are urged to place their faith in the true Triune God, evidenced in the gracious appearing in the flesh of the Son, for their hope of navigating the scary (and potentially lethal) process of giving birth. Artemis promised them something, but only Christ is worthy of that kind