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	<title>Comments on: &#8230;the gay conversation</title>
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	<link>http://eugenecho.wordpress.com/2007/06/28/eugene-dan-savage-and-the-gay-conversation/</link>
	<description>loving mercy, seeking justice, walking humbly</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 01:28:42 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: kk</title>
		<link>http://eugenecho.wordpress.com/2007/06/28/eugene-dan-savage-and-the-gay-conversation/#comment-15712</link>
		<dc:creator>kk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jun 2008 00:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>It is amazing to me that Christians worry about homosexuality at all.  It would be interesting to find out whether so-called Christians welcome but do not affirm remarried heterosexual persons.  Jesus said, "I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." (Matthew 19:9; Mark 10:11; Luke 16:18 NIV).  The seventh commandment: "You shall not commit adultery." (Exodus 20:14; Deuteronomy 5:18 NIV).  I have not heard of a single church pulling remarried persons aside, encouraging them to stop committing adultery by leaving their second (or third) spouses.  In fact, I would guess that virtually every "Christian" pastor aids and abets adultery by performing remarriages.  A remarriage is a voluntary act.  Remarriage is the source of major heartbreak, broken homes, delinquency, poverty.  Yet, for some reasons, homosexuality is the litmus test "sin" of virtually every "Christian" church.  Well, Jesus had a lot more to say about Pharasaic hypocrisy than He did about homosexuality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is amazing to me that Christians worry about homosexuality at all.  It would be interesting to find out whether so-called Christians welcome but do not affirm remarried heterosexual persons.  Jesus said, &#8220;I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.&#8221; (Matthew 19:9; Mark 10:11; Luke 16:18 NIV).  The seventh commandment: &#8220;You shall not commit adultery.&#8221; (Exodus 20:14; Deuteronomy 5:18 NIV).  I have not heard of a single church pulling remarried persons aside, encouraging them to stop committing adultery by leaving their second (or third) spouses.  In fact, I would guess that virtually every &#8220;Christian&#8221; pastor aids and abets adultery by performing remarriages.  A remarriage is a voluntary act.  Remarriage is the source of major heartbreak, broken homes, delinquency, poverty.  Yet, for some reasons, homosexuality is the litmus test &#8220;sin&#8221; of virtually every &#8220;Christian&#8221; church.  Well, Jesus had a lot more to say about Pharasaic hypocrisy than He did about homosexuality.</p>
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		<title>By: a church review to humble you &#171; beauty and depravity</title>
		<link>http://eugenecho.wordpress.com/2007/06/28/eugene-dan-savage-and-the-gay-conversation/#comment-15654</link>
		<dc:creator>a church review to humble you &#171; beauty and depravity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 08:30:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eugenecho.wordpress.com/2007/06/28/eugene-dan-savage-and-the-gay-conversation/#comment-15654</guid>
		<description>[...] Links: The Gay Conversation; Listening; Gracious as All Fu*k; and The Gay [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Links: The Gay Conversation; Listening; Gracious as All Fu*k; and The Gay [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://eugenecho.wordpress.com/2007/06/28/eugene-dan-savage-and-the-gay-conversation/#comment-13489</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 01:56:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eugenecho.wordpress.com/2007/06/28/eugene-dan-savage-and-the-gay-conversation/#comment-13489</guid>
		<description>GOD's heart desire is not a doctrine, not church buildings, not church programs, not even church singing.
•	The object of GOD's desire is, and always will be people, 
•	He will not settle for a substitute.
•	Not a movement, not success, not even bible quotations, not bible studies. 
•	But when He gets people, they will study scriptures, they have their bible studies, they'll sing their songs, they'll start movements, and say their prayers, and they'll partake of the Lord's Supper.  
•	They will do all those deeds that need to be done.

A resurrection may or may not mean anything, except that since its Christ resurrection, ... it means everything.
•	A crucifixion means nothing unless its Christ's crucifixion.
•	A kingdom only counts for something, if it’s Christ's Kingdom.
•	A church means nothing, ... unless Jesus is Head of the Church.
•	Christians don't believe in a cross, ... we believe in a crucified Christ.
•	Christians don't believe in a kingdom, ... we believe in the King of the Kingdom.

This whole issue of Christianity that we hear and talk so much about, must have at it's center..., not a movement, not a doctrine, and not even a church... but Christ Jesus. 

While we are in the world we are the object of God's desire and He wants us to His. 
He chose us to reflect His character and His spirit. 

But there's more o it ... because what the world needs is … is "His" people. 
•	His People are people who's hearts have been seized by something that’s outside of themselves. And it has gotten inside of them and changed their whole life. 
•	His people, are people who are inspired to make a difference, to change the world around them, to turn it upside down. 
•	But we are NOT some idealist revolutionaries, but we ARE servants to other people.

But, what kind of servants?
Servants who realize it's their destiny to serve. Doers not talkers. Because the world doesn't need just talkers... the world is already full of opinionated "right-wing" wind-bags. For people do a lot of things with their bodies without their hearts approval. You see... you can do the deeds of a servant, without the heart of a servant. If you do that, you won't be serving GOD, instead you'll be serving yourself. To be His, starts with your heart. Look at the heart of Jesus, look at the character and nature of his actions. He understood His destiny ...a servant.


Matt. 12:20; A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out, till he leads justice to victory.

Jesus was in the "people business" because he believed in people. 
•	We need to believing in people if we are going to be like Christ.
•	He took a bruised reed like Mary Magdeline and changed her whole life. 
•	He took a bruised reed named Simon Peter, and Saul, and he wouldn't turn loose of them, and he changed their whole life. 
•	He has a hold of you and me, and won’t let go of us!
•	And it was expensive for Him because it cost Him everything, 
•	Nevertheless, He doesn't turn loose of us, because He believes in us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GOD&#8217;s heart desire is not a doctrine, not church buildings, not church programs, not even church singing.<br />
•	The object of GOD&#8217;s desire is, and always will be people,<br />
•	He will not settle for a substitute.<br />
•	Not a movement, not success, not even bible quotations, not bible studies.<br />
•	But when He gets people, they will study scriptures, they have their bible studies, they&#8217;ll sing their songs, they&#8217;ll start movements, and say their prayers, and they&#8217;ll partake of the Lord&#8217;s Supper.<br />
•	They will do all those deeds that need to be done.</p>
<p>A resurrection may or may not mean anything, except that since its Christ resurrection, &#8230; it means everything.<br />
•	A crucifixion means nothing unless its Christ&#8217;s crucifixion.<br />
•	A kingdom only counts for something, if it’s Christ&#8217;s Kingdom.<br />
•	A church means nothing, &#8230; unless Jesus is Head of the Church.<br />
•	Christians don&#8217;t believe in a cross, &#8230; we believe in a crucified Christ.<br />
•	Christians don&#8217;t believe in a kingdom, &#8230; we believe in the King of the Kingdom.</p>
<p>This whole issue of Christianity that we hear and talk so much about, must have at it&#8217;s center&#8230;, not a movement, not a doctrine, and not even a church&#8230; but Christ Jesus. </p>
<p>While we are in the world we are the object of God&#8217;s desire and He wants us to His.<br />
He chose us to reflect His character and His spirit. </p>
<p>But there&#8217;s more o it &#8230; because what the world needs is … is &#8220;His&#8221; people.<br />
•	His People are people who&#8217;s hearts have been seized by something that’s outside of themselves. And it has gotten inside of them and changed their whole life.<br />
•	His people, are people who are inspired to make a difference, to change the world around them, to turn it upside down.<br />
•	But we are NOT some idealist revolutionaries, but we ARE servants to other people.</p>
<p>But, what kind of servants?<br />
Servants who realize it&#8217;s their destiny to serve. Doers not talkers. Because the world doesn&#8217;t need just talkers&#8230; the world is already full of opinionated &#8220;right-wing&#8221; wind-bags. For people do a lot of things with their bodies without their hearts approval. You see&#8230; you can do the deeds of a servant, without the heart of a servant. If you do that, you won&#8217;t be serving GOD, instead you&#8217;ll be serving yourself. To be His, starts with your heart. Look at the heart of Jesus, look at the character and nature of his actions. He understood His destiny &#8230;a servant.</p>
<p>Matt. 12:20; A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out, till he leads justice to victory.</p>
<p>Jesus was in the &#8220;people business&#8221; because he believed in people.<br />
•	We need to believing in people if we are going to be like Christ.<br />
•	He took a bruised reed like Mary Magdeline and changed her whole life.<br />
•	He took a bruised reed named Simon Peter, and Saul, and he wouldn&#8217;t turn loose of them, and he changed their whole life.<br />
•	He has a hold of you and me, and won’t let go of us!<br />
•	And it was expensive for Him because it cost Him everything,<br />
•	Nevertheless, He doesn&#8217;t turn loose of us, because He believes in us.</p>
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		<title>By: Two Channel Station</title>
		<link>http://eugenecho.wordpress.com/2007/06/28/eugene-dan-savage-and-the-gay-conversation/#comment-13220</link>
		<dc:creator>Two Channel Station</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Mar 2008 17:08:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eugenecho.wordpress.com/2007/06/28/eugene-dan-savage-and-the-gay-conversation/#comment-13220</guid>
		<description>There is no difference in sin, God holds no sin below or above another. Why do we as Christians usually come down hard on social issues like drinking, smoking, or even extramarital sex, yet we won't say that homosexuality is a sin? There is evidence in both the Old and New Testament for this (Leviticus 18:22, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10). 

I think it's possible to say we believe homosexuality is a sin, but then counter that with the fact that those who choose to follow such a lifestyle are more than welcome to talk with us, and we should actively seek friendship.

While I think we often get the temptation to become politically correct in the hopes of gaining new attendees to church, we should be following Christ's example, and everyone knows that He wasn't politically correct.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is no difference in sin, God holds no sin below or above another. Why do we as Christians usually come down hard on social issues like drinking, smoking, or even extramarital sex, yet we won&#8217;t say that homosexuality is a sin? There is evidence in both the Old and New Testament for this (Leviticus 18:22, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10). </p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s possible to say we believe homosexuality is a sin, but then counter that with the fact that those who choose to follow such a lifestyle are more than welcome to talk with us, and we should actively seek friendship.</p>
<p>While I think we often get the temptation to become politically correct in the hopes of gaining new attendees to church, we should be following Christ&#8217;s example, and everyone knows that He wasn&#8217;t politically correct.</p>
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		<title>By: Wendy</title>
		<link>http://eugenecho.wordpress.com/2007/06/28/eugene-dan-savage-and-the-gay-conversation/#comment-13136</link>
		<dc:creator>Wendy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Mar 2008 02:35:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eugenecho.wordpress.com/2007/06/28/eugene-dan-savage-and-the-gay-conversation/#comment-13136</guid>
		<description>I am also one who is not totally accepted by the church crowd ... so gay fellow humans you are not the only ones, so sit your self centred selves down. 

Why are you gay people so concerned about being accepted into church gatherings. They barely accept each other let alone the likes of you.

Eugene

Compromise will not work here ... there will be talk until the world ends and God decides the outcome. Judgment is later ... Jesus did not come this time round to judge but to save.  

If you are going to share from the guide book you cannot exclude Romans 1. 

So I guess you are going to have to make up your mind as to where you are going to stand on the issue. There is no fence sitting here ... they will pummel you until you agree with them ... they will settle for nothing less. 

There is more love and compassion in telling the truth than getting all confused and caving to the ever popular political correctness of our day. Christ and Him crucified.

From one heterosexual woman who your church would not allow to do anything except sit in the pew and throw you money, I, like the gay, have left the organized church over its never ending hypocrisy in favour of those who are sold out to the one and only true God spoken of in Romans 1. 

But it is good ... I didn't like it at first, but I see much more clearly here.

As Matthew 24 plays out, it is going to be harder for us to know who to trust so trust in God alone will be our lighthouse. I trust you are preparing your people. The delusion is around the corner the elect will not be deceived.

PS
I am a big fan of anyone who will try to eradicate world poverty. I am a WV volunteer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am also one who is not totally accepted by the church crowd &#8230; so gay fellow humans you are not the only ones, so sit your self centred selves down. </p>
<p>Why are you gay people so concerned about being accepted into church gatherings. They barely accept each other let alone the likes of you.</p>
<p>Eugene</p>
<p>Compromise will not work here &#8230; there will be talk until the world ends and God decides the outcome. Judgment is later &#8230; Jesus did not come this time round to judge but to save.  </p>
<p>If you are going to share from the guide book you cannot exclude Romans 1. </p>
<p>So I guess you are going to have to make up your mind as to where you are going to stand on the issue. There is no fence sitting here &#8230; they will pummel you until you agree with them &#8230; they will settle for nothing less. </p>
<p>There is more love and compassion in telling the truth than getting all confused and caving to the ever popular political correctness of our day. Christ and Him crucified.</p>
<p>From one heterosexual woman who your church would not allow to do anything except sit in the pew and throw you money, I, like the gay, have left the organized church over its never ending hypocrisy in favour of those who are sold out to the one and only true God spoken of in Romans 1. </p>
<p>But it is good &#8230; I didn&#8217;t like it at first, but I see much more clearly here.</p>
<p>As Matthew 24 plays out, it is going to be harder for us to know who to trust so trust in God alone will be our lighthouse. I trust you are preparing your people. The delusion is around the corner the elect will not be deceived.</p>
<p>PS<br />
I am a big fan of anyone who will try to eradicate world poverty. I am a WV volunteer.</p>
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		<title>By: calvinlawson</title>
		<link>http://eugenecho.wordpress.com/2007/06/28/eugene-dan-savage-and-the-gay-conversation/#comment-12587</link>
		<dc:creator>calvinlawson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2008 02:40:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eugenecho.wordpress.com/2007/06/28/eugene-dan-savage-and-the-gay-conversation/#comment-12587</guid>
		<description>Eugene,

Love your blog, just found it and added it to my favorites.  I've seen the billboard for Quest Church, I just kind of assumed you guys were another fundamentalist nut job unit, just example of the distressingly similar Evangelical New Religious Movements. 

Obviously, categories like that don't apply to most people in the real world!  So sorry for the hasty judgement and bigotry...

As someone who used to think the Bible was innerant, or at least infallible, I sympathize with your difficulties on the gay issue.  By the most strict interpretation, the Bible commands us to kill those who practice sexual deviancy, including homosexuality.  Similar commandments instruct us to kill people for working on the Sabbath.

Of course, Jesus was supposed to remove this burden of law, but sexual deviancy was not included.  From Acts 15: "abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood."

You have to ask yourself; what would you do if the Bible commands you to do something that you consider immoral.  By this I mean, if your wife is caught sleeping with another man (ALSO Sexual Deviancy, on par with homosexuality), is it your duty as a Christian to kill her?  Obviously this is oversimplified, for every "kill the cheating wife" passage there are numerous that would seem to counteract this in spirit (blanket statements like the Golden Rule).  But say you have a complex and thorough heurmenetics, and the passage still commands you to do something you consider abhorrent?  

What do you do in this situation?  You might scoff that this is a purely hypothetical situation, but I would refer you to the long and bloody history of the Christian Church.  You might counter that this violence and aggression was due to improper heurmenetics, but if that is the case then why is the Bible so hard to interpret correctly?  If it is the perfect law of God, why does it seem so contradictory and hard to understand.

Of course, these questions are fairly rhetorical at this stage.  Once you understand that it was actually Jewish montheists who wrote the OT and not Christians, the discrepencies become clear.  To put it bluntly, Christians appropriated the OT and appended to it, then re-closed the cannon.   And of course, any Christian groups that attempt to re-open the canon are declared heretics, starting with Gnostics and ending with Mormons.  Does any of this strike you at all odd?

It did me.  I did a thorough study of Biblical and Christian History and these issues became impossible to ignore, eventually causing me to "lose my faith".

You see, if you believe a holy book is telling you to act in an immorral way (Yes Virginia, there is morality without religion) and then you do it, YOU ARE STILL RESPONISBLE FOR YOUR ACTIONS.  Believing weird things might explain your actions, but it does not excuse them.  

It was at this point I realized that I had no choice but to listen to what EVERYONE around me had to say, then make my own decisions based on the best information available.

So I really empathize with your hard choices here; good luck!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eugene,</p>
<p>Love your blog, just found it and added it to my favorites.  I&#8217;ve seen the billboard for Quest Church, I just kind of assumed you guys were another fundamentalist nut job unit, just example of the distressingly similar Evangelical New Religious Movements. </p>
<p>Obviously, categories like that don&#8217;t apply to most people in the real world!  So sorry for the hasty judgement and bigotry&#8230;</p>
<p>As someone who used to think the Bible was innerant, or at least infallible, I sympathize with your difficulties on the gay issue.  By the most strict interpretation, the Bible commands us to kill those who practice sexual deviancy, including homosexuality.  Similar commandments instruct us to kill people for working on the Sabbath.</p>
<p>Of course, Jesus was supposed to remove this burden of law, but sexual deviancy was not included.  From Acts 15: &#8220;abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.&#8221;</p>
<p>You have to ask yourself; what would you do if the Bible commands you to do something that you consider immoral.  By this I mean, if your wife is caught sleeping with another man (ALSO Sexual Deviancy, on par with homosexuality), is it your duty as a Christian to kill her?  Obviously this is oversimplified, for every &#8220;kill the cheating wife&#8221; passage there are numerous that would seem to counteract this in spirit (blanket statements like the Golden Rule).  But say you have a complex and thorough heurmenetics, and the passage still commands you to do something you consider abhorrent?  </p>
<p>What do you do in this situation?  You might scoff that this is a purely hypothetical situation, but I would refer you to the long and bloody history of the Christian Church.  You might counter that this violence and aggression was due to improper heurmenetics, but if that is the case then why is the Bible so hard to interpret correctly?  If it is the perfect law of God, why does it seem so contradictory and hard to understand.</p>
<p>Of course, these questions are fairly rhetorical at this stage.  Once you understand that it was actually Jewish montheists who wrote the OT and not Christians, the discrepencies become clear.  To put it bluntly, Christians appropriated the OT and appended to it, then re-closed the cannon.   And of course, any Christian groups that attempt to re-open the canon are declared heretics, starting with Gnostics and ending with Mormons.  Does any of this strike you at all odd?</p>
<p>It did me.  I did a thorough study of Biblical and Christian History and these issues became impossible to ignore, eventually causing me to &#8220;lose my faith&#8221;.</p>
<p>You see, if you believe a holy book is telling you to act in an immorral way (Yes Virginia, there is morality without religion) and then you do it, YOU ARE STILL RESPONISBLE FOR YOUR ACTIONS.  Believing weird things might explain your actions, but it does not excuse them.  </p>
<p>It was at this point I realized that I had no choice but to listen to what EVERYONE around me had to say, then make my own decisions based on the best information available.</p>
<p>So I really empathize with your hard choices here; good luck!</p>
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